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Author Topic: Finances for the tourney  (Read 17823 times)

March 26, 2018, 12:31:07 PM
Reply #15

promotherobot

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Re: Finances for the tourney
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2018, 12:31:07 PM »
I was at that Big 4 tourney. It had a reasonable turnout, around 5K. (Which looks sparse in a 20K arena) Still mad Canisius beat us.  >:(

That said, I bet a Big 4 tourney next year would do well, with all the schools playing at a high level. But why settle for local schools? Why not get together with Pegula Sports Entertainment and pitch the idea of a "Canalside Invitational" and invite Syracuse, West Virginia, Penn State, etc? Might be the only way Buffalo will ever get a high-major to play UB in Buffalo.

That's the Catch-22. UB basketball is at its highest level. Interest among local fans is higher than ever. But we can't get a marquee opponent because no high major wants to risk a loss, especially on our home court. This will be Coach Oats (or whoever builds the OOC schedule) greatest challenge.

March 26, 2018, 12:43:04 PM
Reply #16

promotherobot

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Re: Finances for the tourney
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2018, 12:43:04 PM »
I'm not a big fan of playing at KeyBank.  Last time UB played there, the tickets weren't even included in the Season Ticket package. The students also don't show up down there (assuming the game is in November or early December when they could).

I think they get bigger crowds at Alumni.

When the football team played at New Era Field a few years ago, the place was empty.

If they want a game at KeyBank, it should be against Syracuse or other big name schools  rather than part of the Little 3.

Define empty. UB drew 26,226 at that game. That's the 4th highest attendance for any UB game since 2000, and the largest ever for an October or November home game! UB football should absolutely play at least one game every season at New Era. Especially if it's a week when students are home anyway.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2018, 12:47:26 PM by promotherobot »

March 26, 2018, 02:22:16 PM
Reply #17

Bull_In_Exile

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Re: Finances for the tourney
« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2018, 02:22:16 PM »
Could not read the article because it is behind a pay wall.

However, my understanding is that money is paid out per game played which is really given to the conferences and split among the schools.  I also believe the further you go the more money is paid in the later rounds.  That is why the PAC12 is upset this year.  Only three games played.  Not sure of the schools that earn the money get a higher percentage.

More money could be coming in on the wome's side with at least six games being played.

The MAC had some secret formula for distributing NCAA Units bases on a lot of factors.

1 - A large part of the distribution was given out equally to the entire conference
2 - A formula was applied to the rest which gives points for (NCAA tourney games played, home games played, attendance, RPI, ....)

Given UB has played 4 of the MAC's last 6 NCAA games and we've been pretty high up in RPI this year were likely getting a big chunck of that.
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March 26, 2018, 02:23:38 PM
Reply #18

bullsbball

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Re: Finances for the tourney
« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2018, 02:23:38 PM »
Define empty. UB drew 26,226 at that game.
Were you there? 

That must be the number of tickets sold/given away. Full capacity is nearly 72,000. Upper bowl was closed. Lower bowl North (sunny) side was full. Lower Bowl South (shade) side was nearly empty. Endzones were empty.

I was sitting nearly by myself on the south side because I was too lazy to move to the sunny side.

March 26, 2018, 03:34:19 PM
Reply #19

dutchcountry7

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Re: Finances for the tourney
« Reply #19 on: March 26, 2018, 03:34:19 PM »
I was at that Big 4 tourney. It had a reasonable turnout, around 5K. (Which looks sparse in a 20K arena) Still mad Canisius beat us.  >:(

That said, I bet a Big 4 tourney next year would do well, with all the schools playing at a high level. But why settle for local schools? Why not get together with Pegula Sports Entertainment and pitch the idea of a "Canalside Invitational" and invite Syracuse, West Virginia, Penn State, etc? Might be the only way Buffalo will ever get a high-major to play UB in Buffalo.

That's the Catch-22. UB basketball is at its highest level. Interest among local fans is higher than ever. But we can't get a marquee opponent because no high major wants to risk a loss, especially on our home court. This will be Coach Oats (or whoever builds the OOC schedule) greatest challenge.

No way would Pegulas do this.  They have no interest in building a UB fan base.  They are in the sports entertainment business and UB's rise will crowd out their market.  They don't want competition in the Buffalo market.  They will gladly sell rentals of their facilities for other people to try to market events (like when the MAAC hosts the NCAA tournament there which resulted in the Big4 being played as a trial run for the NCAAs).

Additionally, tournaments are expensive to get good teams.  The Battle4Atlantis pays $1MM to the winning team for playing in the event.  The event is used to market the island and the Atlantis resort.  Buffalo isn't going to pay to market the city through a basketball tournament.  No one is coming in for a vacation to watch basketball in Buffalo.  That is why the tournaments are in destination cities or big recruiting areas.  Buffalo doesn't have a lot of recruiting.  So there will be no fans (which is funny because no one shows up to these tournaments anyways--didn't you watch the Caymen Island Classic?).  Which means it does nothing for the Pegulas or Buffalo.  UB would benefit, for sure, but that would be about it.  And that also means it can't be a regular event for UB since you can only play in a tournament once in a four year cycle so the Pegulas would have to rotate Bonas, Canisius, and Niagara if they wanted a local team which doesn't do anything to help build UB.

Even as a single game event, no big name schools are going to jump on this.  It takes about $250k to pay a big name for a neutral site game showcase game. Which means you need a TV parter who can sell commercials for a national broadcast.  You're not getting this for a UB hosted game.  And it also puts the game outside of the season ticket package for fans.  If you put it in the season ticket package then it is a home game for the Bulls (which opposing teams won't like for RPI reasons) and the MAC owns the TV rights.

Syracuse has no reason to play in Buffalo.  The Carrier Dome holds more fans and UB is desperate for games against good teams.  Syracuse can sell their own tickets--keep the money--and give a small paycheck ($85k) to UB or find some other team like Vermont, Lehigh, or NJIT to accept the check.  The last time the Orange played in Buffalo was to land Johnny Flynn and they played Canisius.  Teams don't travel for recruitment games much anymore.  The landscape has changed.



March 26, 2018, 03:38:50 PM
Reply #20

BrooklynBull

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Re: Finances for the tourney
« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2018, 03:38:50 PM »
I was at that Big 4 tourney. It had a reasonable turnout, around 5K. (Which looks sparse in a 20K arena) Still mad Canisius beat us.  >:(

That said, I bet a Big 4 tourney next year would do well, with all the schools playing at a high level. But why settle for local schools? Why not get together with Pegula Sports Entertainment and pitch the idea of a "Canalside Invitational" and invite Syracuse, West Virginia, Penn State, etc? Might be the only way Buffalo will ever get a high-major to play UB in Buffalo.

That's the Catch-22. UB basketball is at its highest level. Interest among local fans is higher than ever. But we can't get a marquee opponent because no high major wants to risk a loss, especially on our home court. This will be Coach Oats (or whoever builds the OOC schedule) greatest challenge.

No way would Pegulas do this.  They have no interest in building a UB fan base.  They are in the sports entertainment business and UB's rise will crowd out their market.  They don't want competition in the Buffalo market.  They will gladly sell rentals of their facilities for other people to try to market events (like when the MAAC hosts the NCAA tournament there which resulted in the Big4 being played as a trial run for the NCAAs).

Additionally, tournaments are expensive to get good teams.  The Battle4Atlantis pays $1MM to the winning team for playing in the event.  The event is used to market the island and the Atlantis resort.  Buffalo isn't going to pay to market the city through a basketball tournament.  No one is coming in for a vacation to watch basketball in Buffalo.  That is why the tournaments are in destination cities or big recruiting areas.  Buffalo doesn't have a lot of recruiting.  So there will be no fans (which is funny because no one shows up to these tournaments anyways--didn't you watch the Caymen Island Classic?).  Which means it does nothing for the Pegulas or Buffalo.  UB would benefit, for sure, but that would be about it.  And that also means it can't be a regular event for UB since you can only play in a tournament once in a four year cycle so the Pegulas would have to rotate Bonas, Canisius, and Niagara if they wanted a local team which doesn't do anything to help build UB.

Even as a single game event, no big name schools are going to jump on this.  It takes about $250k to pay a big name for a neutral site game showcase game. Which means you need a TV parter who can sell commercials for a national broadcast.  You're not getting this for a UB hosted game.  And it also puts the game outside of the season ticket package for fans.  If you put it in the season ticket package then it is a home game for the Bulls (which opposing teams won't like for RPI reasons) and the MAC owns the TV rights.

Syracuse has no reason to play in Buffalo.  The Carrier Dome holds more fans and UB is desperate for games against good teams.  Syracuse can sell their own tickets--keep the money--and give a small paycheck ($85k) to UB or find some other team like Vermont, Lehigh, or NJIT to accept the check.  The last time the Orange played in Buffalo was to land Johnny Flynn and they played Canisius.  Teams don't travel for recruitment games much anymore.  The landscape has changed.

Not so.  I was there.

March 26, 2018, 03:52:29 PM
Reply #21

dutchcountry7

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Re: Finances for the tourney
« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2018, 03:52:29 PM »
Not so.  I was there.

Oh, so you were the one!

So much for trying to stay anonymous on the board.  Now we all know who you are.  ha ha


March 27, 2018, 09:13:45 AM
Reply #22

JoeyRattlesnake

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Re: Finances for the tourney
« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2018, 09:13:45 AM »
I was at that Big 4 tourney. It had a reasonable turnout, around 5K. (Which looks sparse in a 20K arena) Still mad Canisius beat us.  >:(

That said, I bet a Big 4 tourney next year would do well, with all the schools playing at a high level. But why settle for local schools? Why not get together with Pegula Sports Entertainment and pitch the idea of a "Canalside Invitational" and invite Syracuse, West Virginia, Penn State, etc? Might be the only way Buffalo will ever get a high-major to play UB in Buffalo.

That's the Catch-22. UB basketball is at its highest level. Interest among local fans is higher than ever. But we can't get a marquee opponent because no high major wants to risk a loss, especially on our home court. This will be Coach Oats (or whoever builds the OOC schedule) greatest challenge.

No way would Pegulas do this.  They have no interest in building a UB fan base.  They are in the sports entertainment business and UB's rise will crowd out their market.  They don't want competition in the Buffalo market.  They will gladly sell rentals of their facilities for other people to try to market events (like when the MAAC hosts the NCAA tournament there which resulted in the Big4 being played as a trial run for the NCAAs).

Additionally, tournaments are expensive to get good teams.  The Battle4Atlantis pays $1MM to the winning team for playing in the event.  The event is used to market the island and the Atlantis resort.  Buffalo isn't going to pay to market the city through a basketball tournament.  No one is coming in for a vacation to watch basketball in Buffalo.  That is why the tournaments are in destination cities or big recruiting areas.  Buffalo doesn't have a lot of recruiting.  So there will be no fans (which is funny because no one shows up to these tournaments anyways--didn't you watch the Caymen Island Classic?).  Which means it does nothing for the Pegulas or Buffalo.  UB would benefit, for sure, but that would be about it.  And that also means it can't be a regular event for UB since you can only play in a tournament once in a four year cycle so the Pegulas would have to rotate Bonas, Canisius, and Niagara if they wanted a local team which doesn't do anything to help build UB.

Even as a single game event, no big name schools are going to jump on this.  It takes about $250k to pay a big name for a neutral site game showcase game. Which means you need a TV parter who can sell commercials for a national broadcast.  You're not getting this for a UB hosted game.  And it also puts the game outside of the season ticket package for fans.  If you put it in the season ticket package then it is a home game for the Bulls (which opposing teams won't like for RPI reasons) and the MAC owns the TV rights.

Syracuse has no reason to play in Buffalo.  The Carrier Dome holds more fans and UB is desperate for games against good teams.  Syracuse can sell their own tickets--keep the money--and give a small paycheck ($85k) to UB or find some other team like Vermont, Lehigh, or NJIT to accept the check.  The last time the Orange played in Buffalo was to land Johnny Flynn and they played Canisius.  Teams don't travel for recruitment games much anymore.  The landscape has changed.

I agree in part, that no Power 5 school wants to schedule a team like UB because it's "great, you beat a MAC school, you should have" or it's "oh my, you're so terrible, how did you lose to a MAC school".  However, sustained success can change that.  As NO said in his press conference after returning from Boise, we're trying to build this into a VCU, a Wichita State, a Gonzaga.  Sustained success changes the perspective of your program and it's no longer "Great, you should have beat Buffalo" and turns into "solid road win against a perennial top 100 team".  It will take some time of sustained success, but as they say, winning cures everything.  Win and everything else will take care of itself.

March 27, 2018, 09:45:46 AM
Reply #23

Jeseph

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Re: Finances for the tourney
« Reply #23 on: March 27, 2018, 09:45:46 AM »
As NO said in his press conference after returning from Boise, we're trying to build this into a VCU, a Wichita State, a Gonzaga.  Sustained success changes the perspective of your program and it's no longer "Great, you should have beat Buffalo" and turns into "solid road win against a perennial top 100 team".  It will take some time of sustained success, but as they say, winning cures everything.  Win and everything else will take care of itself.

This year helped with wins against UB counting as Quadrant 1 wins for both Syracuse and Bona's at-large resume. Being in the "quality wins" conversation obviously means we lost but I like us being considered a quality opponent in bracket considerations

March 27, 2018, 12:14:16 PM
Reply #24

guru

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Re: Finances for the tourney
« Reply #24 on: March 27, 2018, 12:14:16 PM »
Yes, Nate Oats is really pushing for us to be considered one of the better high majors. And yes winning cures everything. It will be interesting who our non conference foes will be and as always we need to win some of those games to be considered come tourney time. Go Bulls!!!

March 27, 2018, 06:26:10 PM
Reply #25

promotherobot

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Re: Finances for the tourney
« Reply #25 on: March 27, 2018, 06:26:10 PM »
Define empty. UB drew 26,226 at that game.
Were you there? 

That must be the number of tickets sold/given away. Full capacity is nearly 72,000. Upper bowl was closed. Lower bowl North (sunny) side was full. Lower Bowl South (shade) side was nearly empty. Endzones were empty.

I was sitting nearly by myself on the south side because I was too lazy to move to the sunny side.
I watched on TV and thought it was a better looking crowd than the alleged 4,000 (more like 400) that a late season game at UB Stadium draws.

I'll take 26K in a 72K stadium over 4K in 30K stadium.

March 28, 2018, 12:09:57 AM
Reply #26

Bull_In_Exile

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Re: Finances for the tourney
« Reply #26 on: March 28, 2018, 12:09:57 AM »
Define empty. UB drew 26,226 at that game.
Were you there? 

That must be the number of tickets sold/given away. Full capacity is nearly 72,000. Upper bowl was closed. Lower bowl North (sunny) side was full. Lower Bowl South (shade) side was nearly empty. Endzones were empty.

I was sitting nearly by myself on the south side because I was too lazy to move to the sunny side.
I watched on TV and thought it was a better looking crowd than the alleged 4,000 (more like 400) that a late season game at UB Stadium draws.

I'll take 26K in a 72K stadium over 4K in 30K stadium.

I had heard the only down side to that game, economically, was that the school had to pay for the snow removal. If they could *Guarantee* that they would not have to remove snow the school would have done it again under White.
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March 28, 2018, 09:53:12 AM
Reply #27

promotherobot

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Re: Finances for the tourney
« Reply #27 on: March 28, 2018, 09:53:12 AM »
Unfortunately you never can be 100%sure when it's going to snow in wny. Maybe they could do an early season OOC game? I bet Terry Pegula could coax Penn State to play.

March 28, 2018, 12:10:59 PM
Reply #28

Bull_In_Exile

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Re: Finances for the tourney
« Reply #28 on: March 28, 2018, 12:10:59 PM »
Unfortunately you never can be 100%sure when it's going to snow in wny. Maybe they could do an early season OOC game? I bet Terry Pegula could coax Penn State to play.

Yea, and that was the problem. The Early season does not make sense because Students are on campus. That black Friday game is perfect because kids are not on campus. I'd love the idea of doing one of the early "MACTION" games at the stadium (Like November 6th). Snow is not out of the question, but it's a lot less likely than later in the month. But then you need to figure out a way to get anywhere from a few hundred to a couple of thousand students from Amherst to Orchard Park.   
 
And even with the Big stadium no power team is going to come to Buffalo to play. I mean *maybe* you could get a big indy like ND or BYU if it's a neutral site game but not as a UB home game. 
"I will play fullback in the next game and I’ll have a gun with me. The first Buffalo man who shows yellow, I’ll drop." -- Coach Turk Gordon

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March 29, 2018, 10:35:18 AM
Reply #29

bullsbball

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Re: Finances for the tourney
« Reply #29 on: March 29, 2018, 10:35:18 AM »
I had heard the only down side to that game, economically, was that the school had to pay for the snow removal. If they could *Guarantee* that they would not have to remove snow the school would have done it again under White.
They didn't have to pay for renting the stadium/security?

I had to pay for parking and then had an NFL-style security check at the gate.  I felt like I was going to a Bills game.

I like the ease of UB Stadium.

Back to the original topic, I assume UB would have to pay something to host a game at KeyBank. If it's a Little 3 opponent, would both teams have to pay to play there or just the "home" team?
« Last Edit: March 29, 2018, 10:49:00 AM by bullsbball »

 


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