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Messages - dutchcountry7

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1
Buffalo Bulls Basketball / Re: 2018-2019 Schedules
« on: August 09, 2018, 09:29:15 AM »
Is the Stanford game when students are away?

If so, that is a shame.  This is a big get and would be nice if there was a big crowd and energized crowd.

2
Buffalo Bulls Basketball / Re: 2018-2019 Schedules
« on: August 08, 2018, 04:15:27 PM »
Texas Rio Grande Valley study supports move to FBS football:

https://www.themonitor.com/sports/utrgv_vaqueros/article_2aa53d18-9aba-11e8-9d46-1ba23372cff8.html

This has been known for a while.  They have been laying the ground work for it.  They freed up athletics money when they merged UT-Pan American and UT-Brownsville into one school.  They completely eliminated one athletic department.


The goal is to have a big University anchor in South Texas and that includes football when you're in Texas.  There are very few four year colleges with football in Texas.  Unlike New York which has many.

3
Buffalo Bulls Basketball / Re: 2018-2019 Schedules
« on: August 08, 2018, 11:03:06 AM »
The tv money in football is too good

Each school in the MAC gets $700k a year from the TV deal.  For comparison, UB is getting $1.8 Million for ONE GAME at Ohio State.

The TV money is horrible! And it is only that high because of the weeknight games which no one attends but gives ESPN something to put on TV.

...Compared to the A10's previous deal that gave teams about $312k a year... (https://www.vuhoops.com/2012/10/3/3448930/basketball-isnt-worth-much-to-tv)


I don't know what the A10 deal is and nor do I care.


You said the MAC made great money off their TV contracts and they don't.  $700k for all sports--basketball and football--is not a lucrative football contract. 


If UB could get some fans to the games, they could make more than that money from an actual fan base and tell ESPN no thanks for the weeknight games.  But the stadium is horrible for fans so why would anyone go see them in person on a Wednesday or Thursday night when they can watch on TV and flip back and forth between other things going on?

Regardless of how high you got attendance, even enough people to offset the current level of TV money, why would you ever say no to more money?


It isn't more money though.  Not when you take a long term look at it. Weeknight games are a significant hit to a program.  Less people attend the games, traffic is much harder to manage, you have to pay more for policiing, there is less alumni engagement (it isn't a full day event), and many schools have to cancel classes in the afternoon to accomodate.  And that is just a few of the issues... 

There is a reason teams like Indiana, Vanderbilt, Wake Forrest and other low revenue P5 programs still play on Saturdays despite the day being crowded and they struggle with exposure.

Their games would be more valuable to TV networks than the MAC but they refuse to move because it will hurt their programs.  Fan, student, and alumni enagagement is the most important long term metric.

4
Buffalo Bulls Basketball / Re: 2018-2019 Schedules
« on: August 08, 2018, 09:45:06 AM »

1. Could be true for UB, the stadium is so bad it's a negative X-factor. Your original post said this would be a G5-wide issue, I disagree but time will tell.

4. If UB leadership said lets spend our resources at the same rate as St. Bonaventure, we'd have between 38 million (5.75% of the endowment) and $46 million ($1,642/student).


1. The football stadium is the biggest problem with the program.  It is a horrible venue for games.  You are miles away from the field.  There is no atmosphere or noise. 

4. If students and fans attended UB basketball games at the same ratio as the Bonnies we would have 10,000 students and 60,000 alumni/fans at each basketball game.  Let's be honest.  The Bonnies care about basketball more than UB.  UB seems to have a bigger interest in the Bills and the Sabres.  Which is what the Pegulas want.  They don't want the Bulls pulling away from their 'One Buffalo' sports/entertainment monopoly.
I don't think that's true. If anything the Pegulas would love for the Bulls to be enough of a draw to share their stadium with them. And why do you think it's a zero sum game? Does following UB require renouncing the Bills?


It is not a zero sum but there is a finite number of football fans in WNY and there is a finite number of football entertainment dollars.

How many people are going to shell out $100 to UB on Saturday (or Tuesday) to watch football and then turn around and shell out $300 on Sunday to watch football?

They will do one or the other.  And the Bills have the atmosphere.  The Bulls do not.  And college students don't go to games when teams don't play on campus so the atmosphere will be worse if they ever tried to abondon UB Stadium and join the Bills with a shared facility.  Ask Pitt, Temple, Miami, UMass, or even Georgia State about this.  There is a reason Georgia State got their own stadium, UMass moved most of their games back home, and Temple is in the process of getting their own.  It is the same reason that Cincinnati (UC/Bangles) , Houston (UH/Texans), Seattle (UW/Seahawks), San Fran (Stanford/SJSU/49ers), DC (Maryland/Redskins) and many others don't share facilities.  Hell, the two separate stadiums for Vanderbilt and the Titans are closer together than UB's downtown campus and the main campus. And you can get from Georgia State's stadium to the Falcon's stadium, and then to Georgia Tech's stadium all in less time than getting between the UB campuses.

There is a reason no one wants to share stadiums despite it costing a lot of money to operate the stadiums.

Buffalo is a small market. Right between Birmingham, Alabama and Grand Rapids, Michigan in population.  Small by NFL standards and even smaller when you consider there is also an FBS team. 

Pegulas want the Bills and Sabres to be the only sports entertainment options in town.  If the fall you watch the Bills and in the winter/spring you watch the Sabres.  That is their key to success.  UB is a competior and they know it. A competitor that can undercut them because of more tax payer support and no labor cost for their players.  If UB took off it would be a big hit to the Pegula's business.





5
Buffalo Bulls Basketball / Re: 2018-2019 Schedules
« on: August 08, 2018, 09:21:47 AM »
The tv money in football is too good

Each school in the MAC gets $700k a year from the TV deal.  For comparison, UB is getting $1.8 Million for ONE GAME at Ohio State.

The TV money is horrible! And it is only that high because of the weeknight games which no one attends but gives ESPN something to put on TV.

...Compared to the A10's previous deal that gave teams about $312k a year... (https://www.vuhoops.com/2012/10/3/3448930/basketball-isnt-worth-much-to-tv)


I don't know what the A10 deal is and nor do I care.


You said the MAC made great money off their TV contracts and they don't.  $700k for all sports--basketball and football--is not a lucrative football contract. 


If UB could get some fans to the games, they could make more than that money from an actual fan base and tell ESPN no thanks for the weeknight games.  But the stadium is horrible for fans so why would anyone go see them in person on a Wednesday or Thursday night when they can watch on TV and flip back and forth between other things going on?




6
Buffalo Bulls Basketball / Re: 2018-2019 Schedules
« on: August 07, 2018, 10:55:01 AM »

1. Could be true for UB, the stadium is so bad it's a negative X-factor. Your original post said this would be a G5-wide issue, I disagree but time will tell.

4. If UB leadership said lets spend our resources at the same rate as St. Bonaventure, we'd have between 38 million (5.75% of the endowment) and $46 million ($1,642/student).


1. The football stadium is the biggest problem with the program.  It is a horrible venue for games.  You are miles away from the field.  There is no atmosphere or noise. 

4. If students and fans attended UB basketball games at the same ratio as the Bonnies we would have 10,000 students and 60,000 alumni/fans at each basketball game.  Let's be honest.  The Bonnies care about basketball more than UB.  UB seems to have a bigger interest in the Bills and the Sabres.  Which is what the Pegulas want.  They don't want the Bulls pulling away from their 'One Buffalo' sports/entertainment monopoly.

7
Buffalo Bulls Basketball / Re: 2018-2019 Schedules
« on: August 07, 2018, 10:48:23 AM »
The tv money in football is too good

Each school in the MAC gets $700k a year from the TV deal.  For comparison, UB is getting $1.8 Million for ONE GAME at Ohio State.

The TV money is horrible! And it is only that high because of the weeknight games which no one attends but gives ESPN something to put on TV. 





8
Buffalo Bulls Basketball / Re: 2018-2019 Schedules
« on: August 04, 2018, 09:25:08 PM »
Yes, the $150k was the cost of the tournament for hosting Marist and Dartmouth.  That is what these things cost.   

Whoever wrote that article heard the Bulls were in the Hall of Fame tournament and assumed it was the long running one and not a new second event.

The money from playing Marquette, West Virginia and Syracuse makes these home games possible.  Need the home games if there is going to be any student and fan interest in the team.

The lack of money for additional games is why SIU is being played twice in one season. You don't have to pay if you swap trips and there aren't many good teams interested in swapping trips with the Bulls.

9
Buffalo Bulls Basketball / Re: 2018-2019 Schedules
« on: August 02, 2018, 09:32:40 AM »
2017 we averaged 3791 fans (assuming paid attendance) and made no more than 249,329 in Ticket Revenue. For conversation say each of those tickets were season and each paid $100 in donation, then basketball would have made $48,340 at the most per game in 2017.

Same numbers in 2018, but more home games and lower average attendance, that number falls to $39,453/game in 2018.

Buying a home game these days starts at around 20k and goes up to around 100k so economically it's gonna be hard to bring a team in. I think we need to start getting more 6k crowds and the good home games will follow.

That is total attendance not paid attendance. They count the students.

You haven't been able to buy a D1 team for $20k for a long time.  $35k is the going rate for a sub 200 team that is local and can bus in.  P6 schools are now paying as much as $120k for a game.

Teams like UB typically use their money from playing a team like Syracuse to buy some games.  Ticket sales don't buy games.  UB is buying games in the tournament.  They get two home games and two neutral games.   

The problem is that Syracuse doesn't pay quality teams what they are worth.  They pay Cornell and Colgate $100k but a good team like Buffalo gets more like $85k because UB really wants the game and could pull an upset.

You can bet Syracuse will not schedule another game if the Bulls win.

SIU is a big game.   

10
Buffalo Bulls Basketball / Re: 2018-2019 Schedules
« on: August 01, 2018, 12:53:31 PM »
No Purple Chickens listed.  Maybe it hasn't been confirmed yet?

Yet again, except for maybe Southern Illinois, no one big is willing to come here.

A home/home in the same season?  You only see that when two teams are not able to find anyone to fill their schedule and they get desperate. 


Sounds like both sides wanted a quality home game.

11
Buffalo Bulls Basketball / Re: Any big home games this year?
« on: July 27, 2018, 11:36:04 AM »
Aren’t we supposed to get two home games as part of this Belfast Tournament? Given the field I wouldn’t classify them as “big home games”, but they will be home games nonetheless.


I didn't think so.  But I see San Francisco has two home games where teams from the other bracket are coming to play them.  Sometimes teams will schedule additional games so maybe they did this and it isn't something for every team in the event? 

https://usfdons.com/schedule.aspx?schedule=178

It would make sense to each team to play one home and one away game outside of the bracket but looks like that won't happen.

Albany would be the best game to schedule from the other bracket.

12
Buffalo Bulls Basketball / Any big home games this year?
« on: July 25, 2018, 09:57:08 AM »
Wondering if there will be any big home games this year. 

13
Buffalo Bulls Basketball / Re: Finances for the tourney
« on: March 26, 2018, 03:52:29 PM »
Not so.  I was there.

Oh, so you were the one!

So much for trying to stay anonymous on the board.  Now we all know who you are.  ha ha


14
Buffalo Bulls Basketball / Re: Finances for the tourney
« on: March 26, 2018, 03:34:19 PM »
I was at that Big 4 tourney. It had a reasonable turnout, around 5K. (Which looks sparse in a 20K arena) Still mad Canisius beat us.  >:(

That said, I bet a Big 4 tourney next year would do well, with all the schools playing at a high level. But why settle for local schools? Why not get together with Pegula Sports Entertainment and pitch the idea of a "Canalside Invitational" and invite Syracuse, West Virginia, Penn State, etc? Might be the only way Buffalo will ever get a high-major to play UB in Buffalo.

That's the Catch-22. UB basketball is at its highest level. Interest among local fans is higher than ever. But we can't get a marquee opponent because no high major wants to risk a loss, especially on our home court. This will be Coach Oats (or whoever builds the OOC schedule) greatest challenge.

No way would Pegulas do this.  They have no interest in building a UB fan base.  They are in the sports entertainment business and UB's rise will crowd out their market.  They don't want competition in the Buffalo market.  They will gladly sell rentals of their facilities for other people to try to market events (like when the MAAC hosts the NCAA tournament there which resulted in the Big4 being played as a trial run for the NCAAs).

Additionally, tournaments are expensive to get good teams.  The Battle4Atlantis pays $1MM to the winning team for playing in the event.  The event is used to market the island and the Atlantis resort.  Buffalo isn't going to pay to market the city through a basketball tournament.  No one is coming in for a vacation to watch basketball in Buffalo.  That is why the tournaments are in destination cities or big recruiting areas.  Buffalo doesn't have a lot of recruiting.  So there will be no fans (which is funny because no one shows up to these tournaments anyways--didn't you watch the Caymen Island Classic?).  Which means it does nothing for the Pegulas or Buffalo.  UB would benefit, for sure, but that would be about it.  And that also means it can't be a regular event for UB since you can only play in a tournament once in a four year cycle so the Pegulas would have to rotate Bonas, Canisius, and Niagara if they wanted a local team which doesn't do anything to help build UB.

Even as a single game event, no big name schools are going to jump on this.  It takes about $250k to pay a big name for a neutral site game showcase game. Which means you need a TV parter who can sell commercials for a national broadcast.  You're not getting this for a UB hosted game.  And it also puts the game outside of the season ticket package for fans.  If you put it in the season ticket package then it is a home game for the Bulls (which opposing teams won't like for RPI reasons) and the MAC owns the TV rights.

Syracuse has no reason to play in Buffalo.  The Carrier Dome holds more fans and UB is desperate for games against good teams.  Syracuse can sell their own tickets--keep the money--and give a small paycheck ($85k) to UB or find some other team like Vermont, Lehigh, or NJIT to accept the check.  The last time the Orange played in Buffalo was to land Johnny Flynn and they played Canisius.  Teams don't travel for recruitment games much anymore.  The landscape has changed.



15
Buffalo Bulls Basketball / Re: Finances for the tourney
« on: March 26, 2018, 11:35:38 AM »
I think having at least a game or two a year at KeyBank Center would draw a lot of people.

Talking to a lot of older people around the city, they're all nostalgic for when Canisius used to play at The Aud years ago. No one from the city has any desire to trek out to Amherst, but I think the city definitely has an under-served community of basketball fans. An NBA team looks unlikely, so why not give them a few games each year?

Well, it isn't like we haven't already tested that idea.

http://www.ubbulls.com/sports/mbkb/2016-17/releases/20161217tscd3q

People talk but don't act.  What they are really saying is they long for the days when the Little Three were respected nationally. 

Renting the arena is extremely expensive.  If UB wants to spend money on something they should just use money to pay some teams to come in for games.  Would much rather play Albany, Binghamton, or Cleveland State for a game at Alumni Arena than bring in Pitt-Braford or Central Penn.   



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